South American Quality vs UAW Quality

[dfw.embalmer]

Originally Posted by ibinubu12

Lets remember here that the Big Three had no problem with those wages until your "college educated" (needs the quotes) bankers drove the economy into total collapse. Only then, when other weaknesses in the business, and in the product, did the UAW wages become a problem.

If you honestly think that the "average joe" on the line is a high-school dropout, think again. The Big Three DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT hire line workers without an Associates Degree or vocational school certificate. PERIOD. In the past, yes. But anyone who has been hired anytime recently is not your "joe sixpack".

Here's another question. When Joe UAW does screw the screw in wrong, is it his fault that he will be disciplined if he has to take the time to unscrew it and repair the damage. That his non-UAW line manager has a quota to meet, and damn the quality if it means slowing the line?

Sure, there are problems with the UAW. I'm not a member, and I don't plan to ever be a union member. But associating "UAW" with poor quality is farcical. Explain GM Lansing Grand River's Bronze Award for plant quality by JDPower. It's those damn UAW slackers who can't build anything right. Oh wait...

Keep in mind that GM hires JDPower to "rate" their product, therefore JDPower is "paid" to give that rating, as do all other automakers...almost all automakers, and other industries have JDPower "awards"...My company pays JDPower to do our customer satisfaction surveys, as do the big three....so that doesn't hold much water with me.....

Let's also consider that the work is very,very repetitive, can cause stress injuries, and in most plants, there is NO air conditioning. Sure, they've got fans, but the machinery keeps it over 90 most all year round. Would you like working there? Perhaps $14 wouldn't be enough to make you do it. Perhaps you'd need more motivation?

Not really, automation fixed that a decade ago...they stand there and swing a seat in and use an impact wrench......or snap a bumper on.....or guide a multi stem impact to bolt on tires...not exactly rocket science here....AND I am educated, wear a suit work in an office, but when I run the crematory it's 135 degrees (in the summer) out there with that thing for two or three hours.....so I have no sympathy...
For what it's worth, I couldn't be a line worker. Not for a career. Thats what those "$70" people have been doing. The "$70" worker is not a 2004 hire. He's a 1980 hire. We e We can't all be doctors and lawyers. But there is no reason that we can't have people earning a good living that don't work in an office.

Why is German quality so much better, lower wages...why are the South American Built Fords and Chevy's better than their UAW counterparts? Toyota gets it done in Georgetown Kentucky cleaner, safer and cheaper than GM.......(remember the sticky gas pedals came from one of the same vendors GM uses)...so that really doesn't factor in the years of quality out of that plant.......AND the filth at UAW plants versus others....expalin that.

I think the Unions should be abolished...cars would be better, less expensive and the economy would be much healthier.

[ibinubu12]

Originally Posted by dfw.embalmer

Why is German quality so much better, lower wages...why are the South American Built Fords and Chevy's better than their UAW counterparts? Toyota gets it done in Georgetown Kentucky cleaner, safer and cheaper than GM.......(remember the sticky gas pedals came from one of the same vendors GM uses)...so that really doesn't factor in the years of quality out of that plant.......AND the filth at UAW plants versus others....expalin that.

I think the Unions should be abolished...cars would be better, less expensive and the economy would be much healthier.

Because the non-UAW plants weren't built in the 1920s (Chicago and Twin Cities), the 50s (Wayne) and so on and so on. It's a whole lot easier to keep a plant clean when you haven't been running it round the clock for longer than any of the plant's workers have been alive.

If you think the workers are the problem, YOU'RE the problem. You just don't get it.

[ibinubu12]

Originally Posted by dfw.embalmer

Not really, automation fixed that a decade ago...they stand there and swing a seat in and use an impact wrench......or snap a bumper on.....or guide a multi stem impact to bolt on tires...not exactly rocket science here....AND I am educated, wear a suit work in an office, but when I run the crematory it's 135 degrees (in the summer) out there with that thing for two or three hours.....so I have no sympathy....

I can tell you the temperature at Wayne exceeds 100 F in the WINTER.

And try lifting a 40 pound HVAC module into a car 70 times an hour, 5 days a week, 2,080 hours a year. Oh, in the heat. And you're putting it through guide holes on a moving vehicle. It's not idle work. The line moves as fast as it possibly can. Sometimes you're lucky and there's a 10 or 12 second delay if the body shop had to "skip" a shell.

[GapBoyPCS]

I'm moving this off to another section in the Faction, as we're starting to go way beyond "Fiesta Facts".

[dfw.embalmer]

Originally Posted by ibinubu12

Because the non-UAW plants weren't built in the 1920s (Chicago and Twin Cities), the 50s (Wayne) and so on and so on. It's a whole lot easier to keep a plant clean when you haven't been running it round the clock for longer than any of the plant's workers have been alive.

If you think the workers are the problem, YOU'RE the problem. You just don't get it.

It's not ALL the workers...it's the union that represents them and the LEADERSHIP that thinks a line worker is worth $70 an hour.....don't get me wrong sounds like tough, very tough stressful tenuous work. I don't dispute that at all....it is just not worth $70 an hour, or $28 an hour plus another $20 an hour in benefits. And the Union should have put back some money to support the retirees instead of bilking ford and the current employees (ultimately the taxpayers) to support the old farts rusting in the nursing home that built the old Fords rusting in the junkyard.
That is what I have a problem with. and I APPLAUD Ford for not taking bailout money. I am pleased with my Ford automobiles (even the UAW built 2009) but it still is not as good a car as my 2011 Fiesta. The build quality is not even comparable. If the unions were reasonable...I could support them.

[Reddog99]

I don't know you, but it sure seems obvious that you have never worked in a factory.

You still don't get it. It's not ANY of the workers! It's MANAGEMENT. If the floor is dirty, it's because management hasn't told anyone to sweep. The people don't wander around doing whatever they feel like. They do what their boss tells them to do. If management is OK with someone sitting on their duff, do you expect them to do something else? It has little to do with union or non-union, it's all management that runs the company. If management wants a clean floor, they'll tell someone to clean it. If they don't give a rat's ass, then the floor will get filthy. If the loading dock is disorganized, it's management responsibility to get it organized. Why do you blame the worker?

If you have managers that act like cavemen, it just provides incentive for the hourly workers to desire a union to protect themselves, which is what originally bought the unions to Detroit. It's easy to see that the threat of a union is what stimulates the non-union plants to treat their workers with human respect. I've worked in both work environments for 45 years (union & non-union) and will always choose a union shop if given the choice. Don't forget that the wages & contract that union workers work under is approved by the highest levels of management. So don't blame the workers. It's bad management. Any business school or quality organization will tell you the same thing.

And you won't hear me standing up for corrupt union practices either.

[LMTech]

I don't stand around waiting on my manager to tell me what to do if I am out of work and my stall is dirty then I clean it. I think if a worker wants a clean area then they will clean it and the boss will notice and appriciate it and other workers may follow the example. This may also lead to additional praise and rewards if the management appreciates what the worker is doing without being told. I have never worked under a union so I can't say if they or good or bad but I do know that a good work ethic will never do anyone any harm.

[nikita]

There is a cultural divide here. When Toyota started a new plant in Mexico to build Tacomas, management didnt know what to do when the workers took initiative to fix things in the plant without being told. Japanese management did not take it as an insult to authority, but tried to channel it into a little more formal process. Both labor and management at unionized US plants, not just UAW or just the automotive industry, have "I'm the boss" and "Its not my job" attitudes.

[Reddog99]

Fixing the product or the plant? Neither one would fly in the U.S. Fixing the plant would probably bring fears of liability and code violations. Fixing the product without proper authorization is frowned upon by every quality organization I know.

[nikita]

Plant, remember, were talking Mexico here. " Building codes? We dont need no stinking building codes." Some things did have to be modified for safety reasons.

My point was that aspect of it was handled constructively by management. It would not happen in a union shop here because the plant guys are in a separate bargaining unit and would grievence anyone who dared touch anything.