The "Let's keep Dearborn from taking the goodness out of the FoE Fiesta" Thread!

[Mark Kleis]

Originally Posted by Rodewaryer

Take the blinders off dude. You're missing the point.

Am I? You're welcome to your opinion, but I kindly must disagree. The Fiesta "as-is" is a VERY premium subcompact car. A car that leap frogs what Americans consider to be a great subcompact.

If Ford were to keep everything on the car the price would not be price competitive. It's great for all of the "experts" on here to live in a pipe dream that doesn't consider cost or competitive pricing, but in REALITY (The place where the car will be on sale) Ford has to be conscious of the other vehicles in the segment.

No, that doesn't mean they have to "dumb" the car down to make it equal to them, but at the same time as it is even if "dumbed" down to the supposedly unacceptable level that has been established here, the car will still have more content than the competition!

Would you, or a small minority of other Americans be willing to pay several thousand dollars more for a truly untouched Ford Fiesta over a Toyota or Honda? Sure. But would most buyers? Of course not.

As I have explained time and time again, I love the car as-is, I think it is fantastic. I wish we could realistically get them like they are. But then I also have the sense to evaluate the market and the fact that it makes more sense to drop a few items like a "rear fog" that 99.99999999999999999% of buyers won't even know is missing if that means Ford can keep the car price competitive. It's quite simple, really. It just requires looking at the WHOLE picture, not the pipe dream enthusiast point of view that completely lacks any knowledge of automotive production what so ever.

Originally Posted by Rodewaryer

The foglight is the prime example of all the other things that were removed from a car that had that stuff in the first place. I'm trying to picture the level of de-engineering a car to remove it all.....? Just so the dumbed down version American owners have will give them something to do? What an idiot.

First of all, nowhere did anyone, myself included, hint that Ford would "remove it all." If I thought they were going to make anything beyond incredibly minor changes I would be the first one to be up in arms.

Beyond that, you may want to do a little more research before you call someone an idiot. I happen to know a thing or two about the Fiesta, Ford, and the automotive industry in general. Unlike some, I am not just a keyboard commando... I actually work in the industry professionally.

Originally Posted by mrbirdman330

I have not nor will ever understand why these changes are being made when the phrase "One Ford" obviously is meaning nothing. I believe it was meant to lower production costs and open up wider range of replacement parts. Why is it the rest of the world litteraly in a sense get the exact same car. Europe, Mexico, South America, Africa and Australiasia get minor and I MEAN minor, no exterior changes and hardly anything interior except maybe the dash being a hard or soft plastic with Language changes on the sytem to the local market. Now then you come to North America and OMG we gotta make a new front end, drop the rear fog lamps, give it an ugly hard plastic interior, remove some really great options and simplify the controls. Yup thats "One Ford" alright once again we see the World Car being the typical "Banned in North America" car because it has to be different. "One Ford" for the rest of the world and then "One Ford" for North America.

The answer to 99% of what you asked has nothing to do with Ford, and everything to do with our government. Did you hear about the changes Ford *had* to make to the Transit Connect to bring it stateside? Look it up, and you might appreciate a good portion of the reasoning behind having to make some of the changes.

[mrbirdman330]

Comparing an apple to an orange doesn't make sense and further more I have read what Ford is doing with the Transit Connect. The Fiesta is not assembled in Turkey, the Fiesta for North America is to be assembled in Mexico and the "Chicken Tax" only applies to trucks. I find it disugsting to see Ford making such stupid decisions and wasting resources like that. I read also nowhere in the NHTSA laws that states we are required to not have rear foglamps. "One Ford" for the rest of the world "One Ford" for the USA.

[azulejost]

I understand people don't like that Ford is spending money to redesign the taillights instead of just keeping the rear fog because I would like to have the rear fog myself. However, it terms of overall cost for Ford, the expense of redoing the light wiring and housing when new moldings and such would have to be made for the Mexico factory doesn't amount to much, and I can see that not adding the wiring and complexity to the light switch housing could save money in the long run. I don't imagine rear fogs are necessary in the Latin American markets either, so even if they are only saving $3/Fiesta, that's well over $100k in savings in one year alone. Easily more than would be spent designing a new housing.

It's always a numbers game. Sure, we would rather front the $3 or $10 and have that feature, then tack on another however much to keep everything else.

People are putting words into Ford's One Ford statement when they assume just because a Fiesta is sold in the EU and the US and China that they would be identical. One Ford means global design and engineering is leveraged to keep products and platforms competitive around the world. The trivial details such as lights, seats, qualities of the plastics, paint colors, wheels, and tires do not account for anywhere near the development budget compared to the platform, suspension, powertrain, and body. These are the things that will be kept as similar as possible while allowing the other details to be altered as seen fit for individual markets.

It's all well and good to wish the Fiesta were the same everywhere if everyone got the EU version, but imagine how much less exciting it would be if the Chinese version were the standard?

[Rodewaryer]

"a few items like a "rear fog" that 99.99999999999999999% of buyers won't even know is missing ....... not the pipe dream enthusiast point of view..."

I think the vast majority of enthusiasts that have converted their cars to Euro spec or personally like that spec or plan to convert them makes up a little more than 0.0000000000001%. Some enthusiasts do some strange things to their cars but I don't think very many of them would be considered pipe dreamers or would care to be thought of as such.

"Beyond that, you may want to do a little more research before you call someone an idiot. I happen to know a thing or two about the Fiesta, Ford, and the automotive industry in general. Unlike some, I am not just a keyboard commando... I actually work in the industry professionally."

Holy bloody hell. I imagine some would be impressed by that. Idiot was a little over the top I guess but your hip shot made me make one. I don't work in the industry and never did. Looks like 30 years in aerospace and then micro processor industry means I don't know anything. Keyboard commando....??? Hardcore Enthusiast since Lotus Europa's were on dealer showroom floors maybe. Keyboard commando, nope, nor anyone in this car freaks realm.

I think 'over reaction' is pretty descriptive to a response to your stab at people being miffed at the removal of features and the incorrect presumption that the de-engineered cars features are easily re-integrated. Your 'truck' may have been so, but reintegrating Euro parts back into the Mk1 Focus hatch was not, especially for those of us that had very early cars and had to figure out how to do these things on our own with no forums or club 'how to' help.

I thought the basic purpose of the thread was about keeping the Fiesta whole, or as close to original form as possible. Pretty sure that's the point of view I was trying to support.

[golf strom]

Originally Posted by mrbirdman330

I have not nor will ever understand why these changes are being made when the phrase "One Ford" obviously is meaning nothing. I believe it was meant to lower production costs and open up wider range of replacement parts. Why is it the rest of the world litteraly in a sense get the exact same car. Europe, Mexico, South America, Africa and Australiasia get minor and I MEAN minor, no exterior changes and hardly anything interior except maybe the dash being a hard or soft plastic with Language changes on the sytem to the local market. Now then you come to North America and OMG we gotta make a new front end, drop the rear fog lamps, give it an ugly hard plastic interior, remove some really great options and simplify the controls. Yup thats "One Ford" alright once again we see the World Car being the typical "Banned in North America" car because it has to be different. "One Ford" for the rest of the world and then "One Ford" for North America.

You're spot on mrbirdman!!!!!!!

I can only believe that aside from REQUIRED changes for DOT and EPA there ARE NO LOGICAL and certainly not budgetary reasons to alter such a car...most of the small items that Ford is changing will cost Ford MORE than if they simply left well enough for RoW alone!!!!!


I promise you that removing the Rear Fog (redesign the wiringing harness and lamp assy housing and headlamp switch) costs far far more in duplicate parts and engineering and production than keeping the RoW set up...THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT BY THE DOT TO REMOVE IT. PERIOD!!!!!!

This is only one example..don't forget the door card panels, dashboard, seats...ect......

[golf strom]

Originally Posted by Rodewaryer

"a

I think 'over reaction' is pretty descriptive to a response to your stab at people being miffed at the removal of features and the incorrect presumption that the de-engineered cars features are easily re-integrated. Your 'truck' may have been so, but reintegrating Euro parts back into the Mk1 Focus hatch was not, especially for those of us that had very early cars and had to figure out how to do these things on our own with no forums or club 'how to' help.

Correct again!!!!

Installing some of the smaller items into the redesigned US only product is very difficult because Ford does not usually have those items plug and play...so replacing the US spec tail lamp or headlamp is often times much more difficult then simply say replacing the US headlamp with another US headlamp..

Sorry Mark Kleis..... Ford is not fooling anyone and previous buyers of the Focus and such will not be as quick to forgive changes made or buy the new product if it is changed like previous models.....

Ford will lose A LOT of young import buyers with an attitude like yours.


Concerning the "One Ford" program that is being trumpeted by Ford, to the general public it means that good, solid, well engineered products, like the Fiesta will be as identical as possible (less DOT/EPA) from one market to another.....anything thing less is simply "MARKETING PHOOEY"!!!!!!!

[mrbirdman330]

Basically what I'm trying to say as in the means of "One Ford", in every other market there is either little or no change to the Fiesta. Only exception might be language, Speedo, or the LHD and RHD configuration. Also carpeting for some countries while others don't get it. Otherwise exterior wise the car is not touched at all with maybe the excption of a Rim choice or two. Why does Ford have to make total changes to the Fiesta for US soil when the whole point of having these global cars was to reduce cost production by making all the parts the same and readily available. The Fiesta is a European Car and it should keep its European Specs and appearance. We don't need a North American only Version that will look nothing like what the rest of the world has. The only thing I could see is if Europe upon the launch of next years model will get the design features of what the North American Market will get. I don't need a seat that can accomodate the late Pavarotti, I don't need a redesigned steering wheel with more simplified control system on it, and of all things I don't need an arm rest because my right leg serves perfectly fine as one. As I said, I thought the term "One Ford" meant a more unified global market which was to reduce production costs by making the cars the same world wide. That MEANT the same car that Europe gets, Australia gets, that South Africa gets, that Latin America gets, that the Middle East gets, that Asia gets, last but not least North America and Mexico. But that isn't the case.

[azulejost]

Yet even as a concept, the red Verve sedan of 2008 NAIAS was different than the magenta Verve hatch from Frankfurt '07 or the purple Verve sedan of '07. It had a grille that appears to be very similar to what the production NA Fiesta will carry, just as the EU and China Fiestas' grilles mirror their respective concepts. As far as the sedan's taillights, the '08 concept's do seem to share the look of the other Verve's which makes the NA production taillights different than both the US concept and the EU/Asian Fiesta. As I've said, I think the US taillight looks much better anyway.

Regardless, enthusiasts that follow auto shows, concepts, and the like constantly bemoan alterations being made in the transition from concept to reality. The NA Fiesta appears to be staying true to the NA Verve concept bringing me to the conclusion that perhaps some of us Fiesta enthusiasts are wrongfully believing

Originally Posted by mrbirdman330

The Fiesta is a European Car and it should keep its European Specs and appearance.

merely because the Fiesta Movement cars are the European version and the FoE team developed the car alongside Mazda.

Ford seems to have been preparing us for a somewhat different Fiesta all along, and perhaps we should keep that in our minds a bit more.

[mrbirdman330]

Ford seems to have been preparing us for a somewhat different Fiesta all along, and perhaps we should keep that in our minds a bit more.

Which once again backs up my claim "One Ford" for the rest of the world "One Ford" for North America. Now as to this if it means that perhaps the RoW will get the same styling Fiesta next year then I'll aplogize for what I have been saying. But as far as I am seeing that won't be the case. Ford spending money when it shouldn't for a car that really didn't need any changes in the first place when coming over. I understand DOT/EPA but that doesn't mean we need to completely change the whole car.

[azulejost]

Originally Posted by mrbirdman330

Which once again backs up my claim "One Ford" for the rest of the world "One Ford" for North America. Now as to this if it means that perhaps the RoW will get the same styling Fiesta next year then I'll aplogize for what I have been saying. But as far as I am seeing that won't be the case. Ford spending money when it shouldn't for a car that really didn't need any changes in the first place when coming over. I understand DOT/EPA but that doesn't mean we need to completely change the whole car.

One Ford defined--Link.

Also, from AutoBlog Jan 2007 entitled Mulally pledges "One Ford" global design theme in 7 years (Link):

Certain regional tuning will still take place, with different suspension settings as well as slightly redesigned front fascias. But no matter where you are in the world, Ford wants you to be able to recognize a Blue Oval product from 50 yards out.

I maintain that a change in the plastic fascias is not as expensive a change as some on here would have you believe because the parts are not being sourced from the same locations as used for EU or Asian production. Design costs are really the only costs added because separate tooling had to be created for Mexico anyway.

To me, an alteration to the upper grille of the Fiesta is not the end of the world. I would like the lower border of the upper grille to be in the same arc created across the front by the lower border of the headlights. That's just an aesthetics issue I have where I like any line to be meaningful and integrated; I find the upper grille to be too small and artificial. Basically, it appears to me that the painted portion in the plane of the upper grille would be better suited as to be all grille and not painted.

One Ford is still in the early stages of implementation. Perhaps future iterations will remain more consistent across the world in terms of exterior design though I continue to support relatively low-cost individual variations being made in each major market area in order to more broadly appeal. It is also possible that the geometric alterations required to meet US DOT standards would have made for some awkward lines of sight if adherence to the exact sizes and shapes of the grilles had remained. We'll see what the final result looks like.