funny he mentioned some of the features that are not going to be on the US cars, unless, Ford got smart and decided to keep them for the US car. If so, FocalJet will be happy! Great review from the event.
Compared to just a decade ago it is quite easy these days to have features included just by way of software plug and play. My guess is that all it takes to activate a feature like the rear fog, headlamp level adusters, or single side parking lamps is simply to literally type a few keys on a computer that programs the convienence control modules in the cars and turn on or off such a feature. Often times due to economy of scale the hardware items are always included (bulb, wiring, ect) regardless of which market a car goes to. Of course they might have to use the euro switch for things like the HL level adj, rr fog, sspl, but then all the more reason to simply use the euro switch since it will be cheaper for Ford to source one part than product two different parts for the same use. This is just plain logic and reason.funny he mentioned some of the features that are not going to be on the US cars, unless, Ford got smart and decided to keep them for the US car. If so, FocalJet will be happy! Great review from the event.
Did you get to sit in the US spec Fiesta seats?Now one thing that won't be plug and play, the crappy US specific seats that Ford Dearborn insists on using over the already excellent euro seat. Earth to Ford ---KEEP THE EURO SPEC SEATING!
Did you get to sit in the US spec Fiesta seats?
What about the Euro seats, did you sit in those?
I would bet you that the amount of foam subtracted from that US spec seat is less than three or four ounces in weight at most. I am just as certain that they are not using some magical version of foam or the like for the US seat that would make up for the difference for the comfort and or strain you will suffer if you take this thing on long trips vs the european seat.I've gotta say, the US seat in that video may be the thinnest seat cushion I've seen used in a production vehicle. Almost concept car thin. If that means weight savings coupled with at least equal comfort and support I'm all for it. If not, seat comfort is not a place to cut 5 lbs. off a 2200 lbs. car.
I haven't sat in the New Fiesta seats US or Euro
Also take a look at this vid comparing the US and Euro spec Fiesta seats...you'll notice that the interviewer when he sits in both makes NO positive comments about the supposedly "better" US seat.
Also look at the shape, contour and thickness of the seat cushion bottoms especially. The US seat bottom looks very flat unsupportive, and THIN, which you can bet will make the seat tiring to sit in over long periods of time compared to the euro seat. It even looks CHEAP compared to the euro version.
Check this video out....
YouTube - The Science of Seat Comfort - Part 4
Although I have not sat in the new Fiesta seats, I have sat in the previous generation Fiesta seats and they are almost identical to what is in this new car. I'm a few pounds thinner than you but I seriously didn't ever notice feeling constrained in those seats, at all. I drove a previous gen Fiesta for nearly 5 hours straight with a couple of quick stops and had absolutely no discomfort nor strain from seat time. I personally like the side bolsters it makes you feel more integrated with the car, heck this IS supposed to be a sporty euro car they are marketing here.Ok, so let me say this: I have spent about 3,000 miles in the Euro seat, so I have a fairly firm idea (excuse the pun) of what it feels like. Although the seats are comfy when you first get in, and look fantastic, the more I critique them I notice they are really quite small.
Mind you, I am 5'8'', maybe 165-170 (not exactly a "big" guy) and my back/shoulders BARELY fits inside the allotted area. The seats have so much side cushioning it almost pushes you out of the seat, and for a large individual, it would. For the same reason I wasn't a huge fan of the Ricaro/Euro seats in my GF's RSX.
Actually in many European markets this isn't true, they are actually taller than the avg American.So, when I consider the fact that Europeans on average are smaller than Americans, I am starting to think a different seat is a good idea. A small person can fit in a flatter, less obtrusive support-style seat just fine, but what about larger people trying to fit into the Euro seat?
Actually it would be what maybe less than half the US population is fat so that actually seems like a bad business decision as well.I honestly think that putting seats in the car to cater to a SMALL minority that will make the car incredibly uncomfortable or flat un-usable to a large majority would be silly.
I understand seating comfort pretty well, I have been in the euro spec Fords over the years as well as the US spec Fords (not to mention plenty of other brands as well) and I can say overall that the Dearborn seats GENERALLY are not too good, while the FoE models had EXCELLENT wear, comfort, and reduced fatigue.I think some people are taking this overboard with their never-ending complaints about things they don't even understand, or haven't even seen.
Then WHY decontent and downgrade something as CRITICAL as the seating?!!!?!? Ford is building this car in Mexico (low production costs) and many of the parts vendors are in low production cost countries so it shouldn't be too difficult for Ford to keep the most critical items as they already are.another concept that I think people over look is that Ford has a lagging perception behind the reality of their quality. If they over night decide to make their cars the best quality in EVERY SINGLE aspect with every single detail and request put into the vehicle they will have to raise their prices and stop their discounts all at once. People will freak out.
Although I don't have alot of respect for marketing guys, I do understand this aspect with Ford in the US.If they instead make big steps, but make them STEPS of increasing quality and out-doing the competition in most (but not 100%) areas they can slowly start to justify their premium prices. Ford isn't in a position to be selling a sub-compact with 100% premium everything...but they are darn close
If it IS true that somehow Ford can save a few bucks by deleting the rear fog and sspl, fine, but if you read my other posts it probably will cost them MORE to delete this for one or two markets vs keeping it, since they have to manufacture different HL switches...unless they already have them being produced for other markets, but I can't think of ANY other market in the world where the rr fog lamp is restricted.I think people making a stink over a virtually worthless rear fog light and seats that you haven't even been in is just going a little too far.
No problem, that is why we have forums here so folks can debate things, nothing wrong with a discussion.But maybe that's just me(Seriously, nothing personal, just trying to show the other side of the coin here)
Haha, no surprise there. Like I mentioned in other posts I haven't been able to sit in the new Fiesta, but I have been in the previous generation Fiesta (almost identical seats to this new model) and found excellent comfort, and NO fatigue during a 5 hr drive through Europe.I got the Fiesta seat adjusted and find it to be great!
Same here.From a safety standpoint, I want rear mounted fog lamps and leveling headlights. Driving at night thru snowstorms, having the rear fog lamp is a much needed peice of safety. Audi's/VW's/Jags all use theirs at night during snow storms. When I get my fiesta, I will find a way to get the rear lamp working. Some wire, a bulb housing, toggle switch, and I am back to being safe.
Actually, no, the car is being marketed as a premium subcompact... nowhere in my literature is it being marketed as "sporty." Now, granted, if they offer a true SPORT (R/S/ST/RS) model, then yes, it would make sense to have sport style seats. But as-is, the car is being marketed as a cheap, fun, high quality driver.heck this IS supposed to be a sporty euro car they are marketing here.
The average European IS smaller (height and weight) than the average American. That's a fact. not sure what the point of trying to mention individual markets is? I'm sure I could find an individual market in the US that didn't fit the overall trend... but that would be just as meaningless.Actually in many European markets this isn't true, they are actually taller than the avg American.
Am I fat at 165 pounds?So Dearborn thinks that that it's OK for almost half the potential customers that aren't fat to roll around in that wide seat?
What the heck?
Sigh.... again, I'll even keep this simple and use fat/not fat since you think it is that simple...Actually it would be what maybe less than half the US population is fat so that actually seems like a bad business decision as well.
You have your mind clearly made up that the new seats will be a downgrade and just plain abysmal, and you literally have never even touched them, or sat in them. Maybe you should hold off passing such a harsh judgment until you actually sit in the seat and see if it is truly such a "downgrade."Then WHY decontent and downgrade something as CRITICAL as the seating?!!!?!? Ford is building this car in Mexico (low production costs) and many of the parts vendors are in low production cost countries so it shouldn't be too difficult for Ford to keep the most critical items as they already are.
Again, you are approaching this as if YOU represent the entire market. You don't, not even close. Your size, first of all, does not represent Americans. Then, your taste does not either... you say you could care less about Sync, get rid of it, and yet Americans prefer Sync so much that cars on the lots with Sync vs no Sync move off the lot TWICE as fast!
I'm not budging at all on the seating. Period. The one way they could solve this to my and others satisfaction is to simply offer up the euro spec seat as an option, at a slight additional cost. That would suit me fine. I'l gladly do without the silly center armrest, sync, and the like.
LOL. So when and where did you poll the agents? I must have missed that.So you have ONE single person that has an issue with the Euro Fiesta seating...ONE, that we know of. From all the agents, to the general public that have driven the car, ONE complaint.
The word "ignorant" comes to mind. Especially considering the fact that I am athletic, fit, and even smaller than the average American. Your theory holds water about as well as a strainer.If you're really fat or obese you probably aren't going to be interested in a smaller car anyway, you'd probably drive a crown vic, minvan or truck.![]()
..and using exactly your argument it will almost certainly cost Ford more to offer Euro seats (even with a premium, and judging from your intentional use of the word SLIGHT you wouldn't be willing to pay for the true difference in cost) for just two small markets than to offer a single seat that would be accommodating to a larger audience. Remember, it isn't as simple as just bringing over the Euro seats that are already the way they are. Ford is going to manufacture locally, and they would have to make both sets of seats locally, or pay the high cost to import them. Neither makes sense, ESPECIALLY when you consider that the small car segment that the Fiesta belongs in as-is in sum total is LESS than 6% of the US market!! Then you figure that Ford will have a small piece of that, and you have a very small segment to justify so many options. It just doesn't make business sense.Ford needs to offer up the euro spec seat as an option at a slight additional cost.
It will almost CERTAINLY cost Ford MORE to delete items like the rear fog, leveling headlamps, and sspl, because they have to produce a different control module AND headlamp switch assy JUST for one or two markets.
..and what do ALL of those vehicles have in common? A price tag to justify the features. The Fiesta has more content than ANY car in its class even with the whopping 2 items that are being removed, and yet that still isn't enough. that's my point really... it will never be enough. There will always be someone to complain about what *they* want or don't want.There are NO legal restrictions on these features as far as I know, as many cars today have leveling headlamps ( eg. VW GTI) and rr fogs (audi, volvo, ect) and sspl (mercedes, ect)
...and that is a prime example. YOU may want Euro seats so bad you can feel it, but the majority of Americans would take sync over seats they won't even know they are missing any day.I can do without sync and the center armrest for sure.
But most of the POTENTIAL customers for this car are perceiving it as "sporty" compared to the other offerings in the USA. The US marketing guys may not have planned on that but the consumers perception is king here. I'm not just thinking about MY opinion either, but the potential customer.Actually, no, the car is being marketed as a premium subcompact... nowhere in my literature is it being marketed as "sporty." Now, granted, if they offer a true SPORT (R/S/ST/RS) model, then yes, it would make sense to have sport style seats. But as-is, the car is being marketed as a cheap, fun, high quality driver.
That is NOT the case in Northern Europe (where most of the customers are TALLER on average than the typical American) and the Fiesta is selling very well there. So your arguement about the seats not being suitable for them seems to be unfounded.The average European IS smaller (height and weight) than the average American. That's a fact. not sure what the point of trying to mention individual markets is? I'm sure I could find an individual market in the US that didn't fit the overall trend... but that would be just as meaningless.
Sorry that you took that comment personally. I didn't mean YOU, I meant obese or fat folks in general.Am I fat at 165 pounds?
My F150 had REALLY flat seats compared to the Focus/Fiesta seats, and yet I didn't "roll around" in my seats. I had that truck lowered with a street sport suspension, 22s, and engine upgrades- I drove the snot out of it and never had problems sliding around my seats. They were leather, too.
I don't disagree that more folks can fit in the flat US style seat, yet I still don't believe that this is the REAL issue WHY Dearborn is changing the seat.Sigh.... again, I'll even keep this simple and use fat/not fat since you think it is that simple...
A fat person can fit in a less sport tuned seat. A fat person CAN NOT fit in sport tuned seat. A not fat person can fit in a less sport tuned seat, and a not fat person can fit in a sport tuned seat.
Thus, common sense tells me that a non-sport tuned seat will accommodate more people.
Although I haven't actually had seat time in the US Fiesta seats, I hear excuses like your above from many mfr's and sure enough AFTER the design is released the customer DOES find it to be less than desirable.You have your mind clearly made up that the new seats will be a downgrade and just plain abysmal, and you literally have never even touched them, or sat in them. Maybe you should hold off passing such a harsh judgment until you actually sit in the seat and see if it is truly such a "downgrade."
But many Germans, Brits, Dutch, and others ARE about the same height/size as most Americans, if not TALLER.Again, you are approaching this as if YOU represent the entire market. You don't, not even close. Your size, first of all, does not represent Americans. Then, your taste does not either... you say you could care less about Sync, get rid of it, and yet Americans prefer Sync so much that cars on the lots with Sync vs no Sync move off the lot TWICE as fast!
I understand this concept completely. But I also know the potential customer base and I think I'm generally in agreement with what most of the potential US customers will want.My point is I think you need to step back and realize there is a BIG picture here, and that sadly when you are talking about selling a product to a massive market with a wide range of customers sometimes certain things can't be exactly how you want them.
I agree with your observation on this .Heck, I think the cheesy chrome accents around the fog lights and on the rear hatch should come painted, but a lot of people prefer chrome...and I get that. So I'm not starting mailing campaigns to try and change something that I know makes business sense..
Their track record doesn't indicate this often in the past..just like Ford probably "gets it" better than either of us.
The only reason WHY the 08 MKI Focus sold well was the timing of gas prices, luckily for Ford gas prices spiked just before the release of the 08 model.Remember on FJ when the 2008 Focus came out how everyone said it was terrible and Ford was doomed? The sales since the release have been far better than the Focus had seen in years...
After looking at many of the comments by agents I have yet to see one comment about the seats being uncomfortable (except by you), maybe they are there but I couldn't find them. Again many big Northern Europeans (taller than American on average) are buying the Fiesta in droves so the arguement about size doesn't fly with me.LOL. So when and where did you poll the agents? I must have missed that.
There isn't an outlet for "the general public" to make mention of it, nor have many been in the car, and especially not for extended periods of time.
Again, you only see things how you want to see them from your perspective.
Plenty ALL small cars in Europe have rear fogs, they are integrated into the tail lamp modules,( today even the bulbs/wiring are already installed so it costs more to delete these or manufacture second version for limited markets )..and what do ALL of those vehicles have in common? A price tag to justify the features.
No arguement there.The Fiesta has more content than ANY car in its class even with the whopping 2 items that are being removed, .
Although you MAY be right, it may be the marketing agency is telling Ford that (what it wants to hear). I don't believe it is that easy to buy a 08-09 US Focus without Sync, so it's true that aside from ordering the car from the factory without it, most all the Foci sold will have it....and that is a prime example. YOU may want Euro seats so bad you can feel it, but the majority of Americans would take sync over seats they won't even know they are missing any day.
I'm 5'11", 250lbs, and I love small cars. I've NEVER had an interest in a larger car and I don't want to own a big one at all. In fact, I feel that my Focus is too big of a car for my needs...If you're really fat or obese you probably aren't going to be interested in a smaller car anyway, you'd probably drive a crown vic, minvan or truck.![]()
I might be interviewing the head engineer for the Fiesta in the near future. I just finished a lengthy interview/discussion with Sam DeLaGarza (Fiesta brand manager) and I specifically addressed the seats and "de-contenting" fears of many.Sure they probably would Mark, yet honestly unless the camera lens distorts the bottom seat cushion this Scooby seat bottom looks about the same thickness and bolster height as the Euro spec seat. I DO notice that it IS noticably wider though.
If you have an "in " with an engineer you might suggest this compromise to them...if the thhickness of the foam and bolster height is the same as the euro seat bottom I think folks like me would be very willing to compromise on that.
Just out of curiosity maybe you can find out the difference in price (vendor to Ford) between the euro spec seat and the current US spec seat unit. I'd be willing to pay about 250-350$ more for the Euro seats. But I'd think it would be a better compromise for both Ford and the US customer if they altered the US seat to be like the Scooby seat bottom in width.
Great. You know I would BE very impressed if Ford had a quick and responsive reaction to observations about certain design aspects by many potential customers, and changes them accordingly .I might be interviewing the head engineer for the Fiesta in the near future. I just finished a lengthy interview/discussion with Sam DeLaGarza (Fiesta brand manager) and I specifically addressed the seats and "de-contenting" fears of many
His response was very promising in general as he said that he expects the US consumers to be pleasantly surprised once the official US spec car is released... the US should end up with MORE content than the Euro spec car, rather than the other way around.
We are all looking forward to it.I'll be sure to post my editorial (it will be published on Leftlane - news, reviews, and info for the auto-industry to continue my Fiesta Notebook series) in a week or so.