[golf strom]

The "Let's keep Dearborn from taking the goodness out of the FoE Fiesta" Thread!

I noticed that the old threads from the focaljet Fiesta site are mysteriously gone. You remember the ones that were questioning the changes in the excellent Euro Fiesta seats, the deletion of the rear fog lamp and similar items even though they don't cost a penny to retain and there are NO DOT EPA regs about them either!!!!

Lets keep the fiddling hands of US Ford designers in the light and keep them from turning the Fiestas into US MKI Focus part II.


Now on to the show. If you have concerns about anything at all about the design being changed please post up here. I noticed that this new sub site "Fiesta Faction" looks a bit sterile.

 

[PowerShift]

I don't think it was anything political. I think they just wanted to seperate the Focus and Fiesta Forums, but had to get rid of all the old Fiesta discussion to do it.

 

[golf strom]

I think it is weird though because some of the threads WERE transferred but the old posts were deleted (the Fiesta Agent car stolen). I noticed that any debate about the "Fiesta Movement" "Agents"campaign was deleted. Hmmm.

In any case lets try and keep this thread on topic.

I certainly hope that if Dearborn DOES deceide to make a Merican style seat for the Fiesta, that US buyers will have the option to select the euro spec seats at a reasonable cost.

I definitely rememeber the MKI Focus situation in the USA. It is true that initially when the US Focus came out it came with Euro spec seats (not the recaro style just standard trim level) they were EXCELLENT, after a number of years Dearborn troublesome hand stepped in and supplied a US spec seat, and yes they were awful.

 

[BRGT350]

Golf Storm,
There is no indication from Ford that they are planning on making drastic changes to the Fiesta to "americanize" it to the extent they did with the 2008 Focus. We are now in the time of One Ford, which means most of the foolishness from a few years ago is going away.

 

[BRGT350]

I think it is weird though because some of the threads WERE transferred but the old posts were deleted (the Fiesta Agent car stolen). I noticed that any debate about the "Fiesta Movement" "Agents"campaign was deleted. Hmmm.

In any case lets try and keep this thread on topic.

I certainly hope that if Dearborn DOES deceide to make a Merican style seat for the Fiesta, that US buyers will have the option to select the euro spec seats at a reasonable cost.

I definitely rememeber the MKI Focus situation in the USA. It is true that initially when the US Focus came out it came with Euro spec seats (not the recaro style just standard trim level) they were EXCELLENT, after a number of years Dearborn troublesome hand stepped in and supplied a US spec seat, and yes they were awful.

I actually found the factory ZX3 seat in the 2000 Focus to be not that great for me. My knee had too much pressure on it, and would hurt after driving. Even the EAP Recaro's have the same issue, and it may be directly related to command seating. The Fiesta seats are very nice, but there is a stiff peice of foam that puts pressure on my lower back. It is not bad, but not perfect. Don't think that the European seat is magically perfect. The only seats I have found to be excellent are the Recaro seat I had in my Mustang. My Kevlar RaceTech seat is good, but only for about 10 minutes. That is one of the most expensive race seats on the planet, and it is not perfect either. What I may find to be a good seat, may be bad for somebody else. I don't think what side of the pond you are on matters for that.

 

[golf strom]

I have had quite a bit of seat time in a number of FoE cars, like MKI and MKI Focus, last generation Fiesta, Ka, and Mondeo, and after a number of hours in each I can say that overall the comfort was excellent and strain from time in the seat was minimal. I am an average male at 5' 9" and 150 lbs and I didn't notice the problem with the 2000 Focus ZX3, or the Euro cars I mentioned. I can't remember the foam issue for the lower back at all in my experience.

Regarding the euro cloth, I also haven't noticed any short comings with the cloth in any FoE product of recent memory. They all looked and resisted wear in a high quality way. Love the euro design in the newFiesta cloth.

 

[PowerShift]

It will be a different seat for the US. There's a YouTube video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mxnUCLsI7o&feature=channel_page

 

[golf strom]

It will be a different seat for the US. There's a YouTube video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mxnUCLsI7o&feature=channel_page

The question is WHY? Like others mentioned in old threads in focaljet, one of the biggest pluses most of the agents and others said they like were the EURO spec seating.


Like I said before if Dearborn wants to supply a US specific seat as standard for the US car that is fine, but there are many potential buyers that will be turned off at this thought, let ME choose which version I select. Ford definitely should offer up the Euro seat to US buyers at a slightly higher cost. If I have no choice about this matter it would definitely deter me from purchasing the Fiesta. Seats are one of the most important items in my vehicle!!!!!!

I can tell you that having spend seat time in both US and Euro spec Fords (not referring to recaro sport seats just basic seating trim), there is no contest, FoE do seating better every time.

 

[FiestaFaction-1]

I noticed that the old threads from the focaljet Fiesta site are mysteriously gone. You remember the ones that were questioning the changes in the excellent Euro Fiesta seats, the deletion of the rear fog lamp and similar items even though they don't cost a penny to retain and there are NO DOT EPA regs about them either!!!!

By all means, feel free to continue your conversation, we just didn't have a decent way to move those threads over here.

 

[BRGT350]

from training I did not think the car was going to be amercanized, but looking at the spy pics, I am fearing the worst. This goes beyond seats and fog lamps, the changes extend to the terrible chrome grille that haunts the Focus. If I wanted chrome, I would buy a caddie. I am not a rapper, I don't want a chromed-out-nose.

 

[golf strom]

from training I did not think the car was going to be amercanized, but looking at the spy pics, I am fearing the worst. This goes beyond seats and fog lamps, the changes extend to the terrible chrome grille that haunts the Focus. If I wanted chrome, I would buy a caddie. I am not a rapper, I don't want a chromed-out-nose.

Exactly, I think that Dearborn has too many engineers with nothing to do so they gave them "make work" perhaps to keep them employed.

You know this is starting to reek of the many previous FoE products that IMO Dearborn actually wanted to fail. From the excellent Sierra that was butchered and came here as the XR4Ti and its European cousin the Scorpio branded as Merkurs and sold in LM dealerships. Of course those stores had no idea what to make of Ford's european cars, they were simply the place for your Grandpa to go and buy his Marquis. Simple put LM dealers didn't want to sell the euro Ford's and frankly my guess is that the folks in Dearborn didn't like their turf invaded by products that made them look BAD!!!!!

Oddly the first Fiesta the US got back in the late 70s/ early eighties was indeed largely UNchanged from the Euro model except for DOT EPA changes, Perhaps the Dearborn engineers were too busy botching up the 1981 US spec Escort to be putting their greasy hands on the little Fiesta.

No one except for one guy which claims the seats were uncomfortable for him, has given a logical reason to change the euro spec seating, not one, especially when the agents all seem to think the euro seats were one of the most outstanding features of the car. The rear fog lamp is also an item that would cost nothing to keep as all the components are already integrated into the modules. It will likely cost them MORE to delete it and things like the single side parking lamps facility.

I share you concern BRG it looks like the car we get will be bastardized just like out MKI Focus and lots of other previous euro Fords.

I have the suspicion that the reason for the "delay" in marketing this excellent Euro version and the actual debut of the Americanized version of the Fiesta is due to all the significant changes that Dearborn will have made, my guess is that Dearborn is hoping that potential buyers will have a short memory after the excellent euro car they showed fades from view. Well at least they are probably smart about that move. But ultimately they won't fool savvy customers that love cars, especially the euro Fords.

 

[streetfiesta]

That was my only complaint about the focus seats. No lumbar support. Dearborn knows that most Americans are considerably fatter than Europeans, and need to glob into a flatter, non supportive seat.
What they need to do is compromise- make a highly adjustable seat for the masses (massive masses), and a euro seat option for the driving enthusiast. Something that works with you, not allowing you to slide around as you corner. And some- LUMBAR SUPPORT!

 

[BTWaid]

The things I'd like them to offer with the Fiesta when they bring it to the US are rear disks, a sunroof, and most importantly is the uber-economical turbo diesel. I've got a 80 mile per day commute and the potential mileage of the TDI is VERY desirable. I may not buy a Fiesta but if they bring the TDI, I will.

BTWaid

 

[golf strom]

As long as the rear drums supply reasonable stopping distances I don't mind them, it isn't as much what the are as long as they stop the car safely and efficiently. I would bet that the stopping distances between the 4w disk and front dk rear drum are pretty close.

I think the sunroof has to be an option but I don't want one, they always leak (no matter who the mfr is, after the first 4 years it seems.

I agree that a TD would be a GREAT idea. Although this might not fly in more conservative consumer segments , the people they are trying to sell this to "get it" when it comes to the newest diesel technology, marketing people are simply not seeing that the US customer (in this segment) is MUCH more sophisticated today than even maybe 5 years ago.

It would give Ford the benefit of being FIRST with this in the USA, Ford should start trends not follow them if they want the desirable customers.

 

[Mark Kleis]

The US will not be getting the TDI, at least to start with.

It isn't because Ford hates America, or doesn't listen to the consumers that call for one, it is because with economies of scale it simply doesn't pencil for the US market.

What do I mean by that? In America the B segment (segment for the Fiesta) only makes up 4-5% of the total automotive market. It's growing, but it's small. Conversely, in Europe the B segment makes up 24% (nearly a quarter!) of the total market. That allows for economies of scale to justify building 3 different engine configurations while still turning a profit.

A great way to understand that would be to look at the F series truck. We have an absolutely ABSURD number of trim levels, configurations, options, etc, and that is because the F series is the number one selling vehicle (and segment) in America.

To put some numbers you can understand on this, let's say the American new car industry expects to sell 10,000,000 cars this year. 5% of that is 500,000 cars. Then you consider there are about 6 or 7 different cars in the segment, (obviously without equal representation, but for simplification purposes, go with it) meaning there are roughly 70,000 units of each model being sold.

Overall, the us only has diesels in 3% of cars.

If you look at VW with the models that offer gas, or diesel options it is about 20% (or less) that are sold with diesel.

So, taking 20% of 70,000 leaves you with 12,000 or so units. To be totally honest, that is incredibly generous at that...in reality I would bet it would be under 10,000 unites for the year. (Mind you, no one has a diesel in a B segment, only C and larger where people are willing to pay more since it is "bigger").

Ford couldn't justify spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars to convert and create and run a plant to build a small diesel that would be put in so few units.

If you import the Econetic diesel from Britain where it is built it would cost $25,700 right now. Factor a US tax credit, and it is still $24,400.

Who here would pay 25 grand for a diesel Fiesta?

 

[golf strom]

Ford couldn't justify spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars to convert and create and run a plant to build a small diesel that would be put in so few units.

If you import the Econetic diesel from Britain where it is built it would cost $25,700 right now. Factor a US tax credit, and it is still $24,400.

Who here would pay 25 grand for a diesel Fiesta?

Isn't Ford building this engine in China as well? If they are it could make it possible to sell them in the America's at a reasonable price.

Even if you included the transportation to supply the Mexico plant it still be be pretty cost effective.

 

[Mark Kleis]

Isn't Ford building this engine in China as well? If they are it could make it possible to sell them in the America's at a reasonable price.

Even if you included the transportation to supply the Mexico plant it still be be pretty cost effective.

I do not think they are. If they were, don't you think Ford would consider that if it made sense?

Ford directly said they can not do it... it would cost $10,000 more than a normal Fiesta if they did. No one (and I mean no one) is going to buy a $25k Fiesta so they can get 6-8 MPG more.

 

[azulejost]

I do not think they are. If they were, don't you think Ford would consider that if it made sense?

Ford directly said they can not do it... it would cost $10,000 more than a normal Fiesta if they did. No one (and I mean no one) is going to buy a $25k Fiesta so they can get 6-8 MPG more.

While I don't think the mpg gain would be only 6-8 mpg more, probably around 30% gain ~12 mpg (at least real world, maybe not EPA testing which overestimates gas mileage and underestimates diesel), I don't think it's so much an issue of where the engine is made as the EPA regulations. Currently, VW is the only manufacturer selling a 50-state legal diesel that does not require a urea injection system. Their TDI is about $2000 more than a similarly equipped gasoline model, although the TDI includes some additional features the SE Jetta lacks.

The big issue, aside from lack of demonstration of market size, is the limited application of a diesel for the Fiesta. The 1.6 TDCi would be great for the Fiesta, but to make it potentially profitable the engine would need to find a home in multiple models. I've driven 90 hp VW TDIs in the late 90s and early 00s and can say that they do have sufficient power, but the market may not like the sound of a 90 hp Focus. As I've said in other places, the best shot Ford has for a diesel engine in their cars is the C-segment spreading the engine through the Focus, Escape/Kuga, C-Max, and Transit Connect. They apparently have no interest in this as they have announced an electric Focus and Connect.

We're not getting anything in diesel from Ford for a long time, if ever, except the Super Duty and maybe the F-150 if they take the new 4.4L V8 diesel off of indefinite hold. I've never driven anything other than a diesel car, yet I am willing to let that go as long as the Fiesta (or Focus) is the impressive vehicle I know it has the potential to be. If anyone wants to wedge a 2.0L TDI into a Fiesta, that's something I'd like to see although it would throw off the weight distribution and handling in a fierce way.

 

[golf strom]

I found what I remember reading regarding a small diesel engine to be built. Actually it is going to be built in the existing Chihuauha, Mexico plant along side the gas engine.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-05-30-2216654785_x.htm

The thing is that because they build it in Mexico the cost of production will be low and they can export it to other markets in South and Central America, not to mention that if demand rises even higher in Europe they can export there as well. I wouldn't be surprised if some Mexican production is exported to Europe as well depending on demand. I know the "buzz word" now is "flexibility" at the manufacturing plants, so that they can quickly respond to changes in the market place. It would make sense that Ford would sell the diesel here if they build that engine line in Mexico due to volume of scale.

Ford has to learn how to CREATE demand for the diesel. Not that it isn't gaining steam from VWs efforts, problem with VW in the USA is that it is looked at as a quirky brand which isn't a good thing except with trendy people who are only a small part of the car market, important to be sure but not the majority of the market.

 

[BRGT350]

I have no interest in a diesel powerplant, so that doesn't bother me. Very few people I talk to want a diesel in a car. I think they have great potential, but nobody really wants to embrace the technology for cars.

My biggest fear, which is coming true, is that Ford NA is going to stick a Fusion-esque grille on the Fiesta. Horizontal bars across the upper grille, and again in the lower grille seem to be showing up in the spy pictures. I can live with drums, but I don't want to live with a chrome front end. I hate that stuff! I think the designers did an ok job fixing the Fusion for this year, but it would have been better without all of that heavy looking chrome. If the Fiesta comes out with a Fusion grille, I will buy something else. I just don't want that look for a car that I own. For daily use, I could even deal with slightly less tech features, but I don't want to spend the next 5 years staring at an ugly nose. There are other cars out there that don't have the chrome grille, and that is probably what I will buy. Keeping "EU DNA intact", "making as few changes as needed" is clearly what we are not seeing from the spy pictures. Perhaps the hatchback will have more of the European grille, and the sedan will have the nasty thing they are working on.